Episode #117: Dr. Michelle Chung
Please note: This podcast is intended to provide information and education and is not intended to provide you with a diagnosis or treatment advice. You should consult with a licensed or registered healthcare professional about your individual condition and circumstance.
LISTEN HERE: Apple Podcasts / Spotify / Stitcher / Google Play / Overcast
We’re 3+ years into the COVID-19 pandemic and it’s impossible to deny that life still doesn't feel quite the same as pre-pandemic. We’re all saddled with the trauma of a life-threatening illness as well as the isolation and fear we experienced. In honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, clinical psychologist Dr. Michelle Chung helps us navigate this new world in a healthier way.
In this episode, Dr. Chung discusses the many hidden traumas people incurred during the pandemic, including losing relationships, worsened social skills, and of course, the long-term effects of all the stress and emotions. She shares some of the coping strategies she uses with her patients, as well as some great advice for processing trauma and stress in other parts of life.
““Yes, for some people, you will see the effects of it emotionally right away. But for most people, actually, there’s a delayed reaction, because initially our bodies are wired to survive and to not really feel…Once there’s some distance from the trauma or the event, that’s when you start to actually really feel and see what the effects are.””
Reasons To Listen:
Learn stress and anxiety management tools from a licensed clinical psychologist
If you’ve been feeling the pandemic trauma, hear stories of Dr. Chung’s other patients to remind you that you’re not alone
Reminder that even mental health professionals aren’t immune to stress as Dr. Chung explores her own battles with post-pandemic trauma
““Being able to experience things in the moment is the best tool to make new information stick, right? I want you to be able to take home some nuggets and just really use them right away.””
About Dr. Chung
Dr. Michelle Chung is a clinical psychologist based in New York City. Dr. Chung specializes in the treatment of anxiety, mood, ADHD and executive functioning disorders. Using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) and Biofeedback models, Dr. Chung works with youth, families and adults in her boutique private practice. She is also on the faculty of the Mt. Sinai Medical Center and the founder of Psychology In Practice, an online platform of courses and workshops about mental health, emotional well-being, and parenting.
Website: https://www.drmichellechung.com/
Connect on Instagram @dr.michellechung. Click the link in her bio to find all the free resources she offers.
-
Harper Spero (00:04):
Made Visible, helps people with invisible illnesses feel seen and heard. It provides a platform for people who seem fine but aren't to share their experiences. It also helps to create a new awareness of how we can be sensitive and supportive to those with invisible illnesses.
(00:25):
Please note this podcast is intended to provide information and education and is not intended to provide you with a diagnosis or treatment advice. You should consult with a license or registered healthcare professional about your individual condition and circumstance. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Made Visible. I'm your host, Harper Spiro, and I'm so glad you tuned in. In honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, we have a New York City-based clinical psychologist on the show. Today's guest, Dr. Michelle Chung, is actually a former business coaching client of mine, and I thought she would be the perfect person to speak to about the collective and community trauma we're facing due to the COVID 19 pandemic. Personally, I don't feel there's enough talk about it in the world or enough resources, so I thought it was important to address it here on the show. So welcome Michelle.
Harper Spero (01:19):
Hi Harper. Thanks so much for having me.
Harper Spero (01:21):
Absolutely. I'm so excited to talk to you here. So let's start off, tell us who you are, where you're from, and what you do.
Harper Spero (01:30):
So I am a clinical psychologist. I'm based in New York City, and I specialize in anxiety, mood and ADHD and executive functioning struggles. I tend to use more CBT and DBT techniques, and I've also recently been integrating biofeedback models into my practice work primarily with youth, family, and adults. And I have a very small boutique private practice. So I have a team that works with me there on faculty at Mount Sinai Medical Center. And I recently founded a online platform for workshops and mental health education called Psychology in Practice.
Harper Spero (02:15):
Amazing. So you clearly have a lot on your plate. I'm really curious to know how you got into psychology in the first place.
Harper Spero (02:24):
Ooh, good question. So I was a bit of a strange kid, <laugh> in the sense where I set my mind on becoming a psychologist, probably in the sixth grade. I remember coming to my mom and saying to her, this is what I wanna do for the rest of my life. I just went on that track. Since then, I feel like in that regard, I feel lucky that I had a purpose at such a young age and a direction, but I will say in college I did, I stepped onto campus, I was ready to do everything and anything that I could. And I think I did burn out at a certain point because I was so focused and so on this track. So then I picked up a minor in business administration and went into management consulting for a few years. What that did though was really reignite my passion for the fact that I wanted to go back into psychology, and that's kind of how I loop back around here.
Harper Spero (03:29):
But sixth grade, I mean, how did you know that that was something you were interested in? Did you have psychologists in your family? Did you go to a psychologist? Like that's something to be really clear on, uh, and determined at that age. I mean, I think at that age I wanted to be a teacher, but I was in school and I was amongst teachers. It felt sort of obvious. So yeah, explain that.
Harper Spero (03:51):
So, you know, the strange thing is I, I at that point had never seen a psychologist. I didn't know a psychologist. My husband always makes fun of me and says, my favorite question is why. And so <laugh>, I just have always thought about why, why this happens. Why is this person acting a certain way? Why did they choose to, to approach or say this particular thing? And I think I was always fascinated by human nature, but at the same time, in awe of human resilience. And for whatever reason, I've always been that person where people would just sit down and wanna tell me things and talk to me about things. Jokingly. My mom used to say that <laugh>, at least all of all of the phone time that I've put in in my life has come to some sort of greater purpose
Harper Spero (04:47):
<laugh>. That's incredible. I love that.
Harper Spero (04:52):
So I think I always wanted to be a listener. I always was curious and I knew I wanted to be in some sort of helping profession, so it just kind of all came together.
Harper Spero (05:02):
So when was it that you realized, okay, business is not for me. I really want to, you know, follow this path that I had, you know, come up with years prior?
Harper Spero (05:13):
So what I'll say about my, my career as a management consultant is that I, I learned a lot in those, in those few years. I think being in the workforce, some life experience, but also, you know, there is a lot of psychology within that particular field too, but more on a, uh, on sort of like a group scale or an organizational scale. And so there, you know, there was sort of that piece that kept me interested. But that being said, I realized that I still was yearning for that, more of that one-on-one connection. And again, for the greater purpose, which is in more of those industries, the greater purpose is to help organizations run more efficiently. And in a lot of ways, if, if we were to take a slightly pessimistic look on it, it's to help them earn more money, the bottom line. And I think for me, that just felt it, it just didn't really connect with what I wanted to do in terms of what I'm putting out in the world.
Harper Spero (06:14):
It sounds like it didn't align with your purpose, if we wanna put it in sort of those kind of terms. So what kind of challenges do your patients often come to you for?
Harper Spero (06:26):
So what I would say is that my, my sort of caseload, my practice, it's such a wide spectrum of people who, who step in my door, I would say there's everyday struggles. You know, people who struggle with things like relationship issues or wanting to understand why they, you know, keep getting stuck in certain patterns in relationships, wanting to improve themself or just going through a life transition, divorce loss, maybe not feeling like they're meeting that potential full potential in life, or they get stuck in something called rumination, which is where you just keep thinking about the same thing over and over. And again to, I would say more what might feel more debilitating struggles. So things like phobias, you know, living in New York City, if you have a trained phobia, a bus phobia, that's really hard. You know, certain conditions like O C d, depression, trauma, even perfectionism, which, you know, has such a spectrum of how it might affect people. So, so it's a really wide spectrum to be honest. Really appreciate working with that spectrum, just being faced with these different types of struggles and challenges and helping my clients in that way.
Harper Spero (07:46):
It sounds like it doesn't get boring because of that, that you have a real range of
Harper Spero (07:52):
Never <laugh>.
Harper Spero (07:54):
You have a real range of topics and things that people come to you for. So one of the other things that I know you focus on is when this episode airs, it will be Asian American and Pacific Islanders Heritage Month. And I know you've done a lot of work in that space related to mental health. Can you speak a bit about your experience, as I know especially in recent years, that's really been a focus of yours?
Harper Spero (08:17):
Absolutely. I feel like this is such an amazing sort of cultural time to be Asian, right? I feel obviously a lot of this came to the forefront during the pandemic and the a a p I hate situation that was happening. And I mean, so many things that were not being spoken were now coming in the media, uh, just people were thinking about it themselves and just so many things that have been a part of the Asian American experience. I think everything from intergenerational trauma, which is, you know, as you know, Harper, cause I know you've spoken about that before too. This, this unspoken trauma that is passed down generation to generation in a way that I, I think people aren't even aware of. And how it shapes their outlook on the world, their life. There's a lot of family conflicts, acculturation versus assimilation. Like how, how do we stay true to our cultural roots?
(09:22):
But then at the same time, you know, uh, live within the American Western culture and then obviously a lot of racial and systemic discrimination that's been coming to the forefront. Stigma and shame around. I mean, so many things, but also, you know, within just mental health in general, there is this way in which Asian cultures do have this idea that they, there's a minimization of struggle or even an unac acknowledgement of struggle. And this idea that you just, you push through things, you know, you don't stop, you don't think about things, you just push through it. And all of these things have really been coming to the forefront within the Asian American community. And I mean, there's so much that has been really encouraging in terms of how this is being dealt with. I feel like people are speaking about it a lot more. I've seen so many new Asian American mental health providers that are coming onto the scene, and I think just really speaking about it, that's where it all sort of starts.
Harper Spero (10:31):
Yeah. And it seems like people are more receptive to talking about the process of what they've going through, they've been going through and what their challenges are, especially around all the hate that's happening in the world more than ever before. Absolutely. So are you finding that people are coming to you whether individually or in group settings and it's the first time they're ever speaking about it?
Harper Spero (10:57):
I hear that, I mean, multiple times a week. I wanna say, um, even the number of consultation calls that I get from Asian clients looking for Asian therapists that look like them, that might be able to relate personally to their experience and, and that the thing that I've heard time and time again is that by, for a lot of these clients, by talking about it, it, there is a sense of freedom and relief that innately comes with that experience. And so I've, you know, even on 15 minute consult calls, I've had people tell me, wow, this is the first time I've been able to, to speak about that trauma, you know, to, to even, you know, to acknowledge it in that way out loud and that they felt better from 15 minutes of just, you know, this consultation call. It's quite amazing.
Harper Spero (11:51):
That's, that's so though that, that, I mean, it's a, it's amazing for your work and says so much about you in what 15 minutes can do, and is also so sad and disappointing to hear that it took however many years, however old they are, to get to this point of going, oh wow, there's really something here that I need to work through.
Harper Spero (12:13):
Absolutely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Harper Spero (12:15):
So speaking of trauma, as I said it during your intro, I feel like there's not a lot of talk or not enough talk around the collective trauma of the pandemic. We're now just about three years out since the beginning, or as a friend of mine refers to it as junior year of the pandemic <laugh>. And I'm really curious to hear what kinda lasting effects you're witnessing and what you're seeing in your practice related to the pandemic and the mental health of New Yorkers.
Harper Spero (12:46):
I think this is an experience that is really unique in the sense where usually when collective, when people talk about collective trauma, which is a shared emotional reaction to some sort of terrible event that affects a a certain group or just society in general, they, I think what, what you often think about are things like natural disasters, terrorist attacks, wars, there, you know, there are certain things that are very specific and usually it's to a specific group of people. Covid was different in the sense where it's, it was global, so there was not one person that, that was not affected by it in some way. And it's invisible, right? There's no bad guy really right there. You don't know who's sick, you know, the person next to you on the train, the person you know, at the grocery store could be sick and could get you and all your loved ones sick.
(13:56):
So there's a, an invisible nature to it that I think created much more uncertainty, you know, much more distrust. And for at least an hour time, there really was no precedence for it, right? In terms of how, how we're supposed to really deal with this, you know, how do we feel about this? Then, you know, obviously there was this whole period of time of do we, you know, do we trust the vaccine? Do we not trust the vaccine? And it just was such an uncertain and confusing time. The downfall of that is, I would say two main categories, anxiety and depression. I think in the anxiety, I see a lot of, especially within social situations now, we have gotten so used to being, you know, disconnected not in these social situations. We're out, we're all out of practice, even for extroverts are out of practice. I, I remember when, when we started to sort of reengage socially, I even, for me, my social battery was so weak, right? And, you know, I, I remember thinking to myself, oh my gosh, I need to, you know, after like a lunch, go home and take a nap. It was just too much. It felt too much.
Harper Spero (15:23):
I really relate to that. I felt very similarly, I love the term social battery.
Harper Spero (15:28):
Yes. So that type of the way, it just, it, it felt like it took so much more energy. The, again, just being out of practice, the social anxiety and obviously just thinking I'm, and, and the other thing about Covid that made it so unique is, I mean, let's be honest, we're still not out of it. Just recently a friend of mine just said, oh my goodness, my, you know, my kids have covid again. You know, and, and I remember thinking to myself like, wait, it's really not over. And so, you know, it's, it's this sort of prolonged nature of what we're experiencing too. The other thing with depression that I'm really seeing is this desperate need for connection, but the inability to know either how to go back to getting that and just the, the experience of loss, how many of us had connections with, with people that over time we have just kind of, you know, lost contact with.
(16:31):
It's just, you know, relationships that we've all lost over the time. And the, that feeling of intimacy, which we need. I think kids, teenagers, young adults, elderly absolutely are, have, are really suffering during this time, especially for the younger folks in those developmental years. They don't have perspective to be able to, you know, they, they've only had nine years of lived life for 18 years. They don't have the perspective that we do to be able to see beyond this, right? Um, increases in substance use, suicidal ideations and attempts are on the rise. I mean, these are, I would say the, the main things that we've really seen in terms of the fallout. And I do think that we're just scraping the surface of what we're gonna see in the next few years.
Harper Spero (17:32):
Probably a year into the pandemic, maybe not even that long. I had a friend who had a son who graduated college, and he accepted a job at a law firm. And I remember thinking, wow, this kid is out of college and he's taking his first from the basement of his parents' house, no socialization, no water cooler talk, no happy hours, no colleagues to connect with except on Zoom and slack and however they communicated. And I think about how crucial those years were in my life, in my friend's lives, and that that was just lost for these people. I mean, even the other night I was out to dinner with friends and one of my friends said something like, all these places, all these cafes and restaurants can't find employees. And what she had heard was so many of these people that had been working in cafes or would be having jobs in cafes, really don't have the social skills anymore and lost their social skills to be able to connect with customers. And it so, ugh, disheartening to think the, again, the trauma that we've all been through. And really, I just feel so strongly in like, it's just not being acknowledged enough. So I'm curious to hear what tools you provide your patients with and what you share, you know, on social media and through your own platform. That could be helpful to my listeners, whether they're living with an invisible illness or not, but being a person on this planet, you're three of the pandemic.
Harper Spero (19:09):
You know, Harper, you bring up a really good point here, which I do think people are, I, I think as a society, we're just so ready to move on. You know, we, we almost don't wanna acknowledge it anymore. And, and therefore the impact that it's still having on us or the fallout is not being acknowledged in the same way. You know, the thing about trauma that I think is important to acknowledge here is that yes, for, for some people, the, you will see the effects of it emotionally right away, but for most people, actually there's a delayed reaction because initially our bodies are wired to survive and to not really feel, if that makes sense, right? Our bodies are wired to do what it needs to, to survive. So it's just action, keep going, keep going, keep bo going. Once there's some distance from the trauma or the event, that's when you start to actually really feel and see what the effects are. So there is often a delayed reaction, and I can't tell you how many of my clients, whether it's kids or adults, I have to sometimes stop and acknowledge, Hey, I, I want you to remember that we just came out of a, a, you know, three years now of this very traumatic situation and that we can't minimize the effects of what that has had on you.
Harper Spero (20:44):
You know, you bring up such an interesting point that while I'm listening to you talk, I'm realizing in recent months, I've felt the effects more than ever before. And I realized that I had covid end of December. I had never had it before. So there was clearly this buildup personally for me, of the anticipation of, am I going to get it? If I get it, how severe will it be? Will I end up hospitalized or dead, or whatever it may be. And thankfully it was super mild and manageable, but I think once recovering from that, I'm now in this place of going like, okay, I've been through it. If it happens again, I'll be okay. But how much stress and anxiety led to the day that I actually got it,
Harper Spero (21:35):
Right? Right. Years of it,
Harper Spero (21:39):
Years, years
Harper Spero (21:40):
Of it accumulating,
Harper Spero (21:42):
It's really intense. It's really, it, it, it's really intense and you bring up such a really, such a good point on people wanting to just push forward. And by the way, I, I do as well. I wanna live my life, but I also realize that like there's trauma through all of this. So let's go back to my question, which was what tools, what can we do we have for people? Yeah.
Harper Spero (22:05):
Yes. So I think the number one thing that actually combats any sort of, or, or brings really resilience, right? In a situation, and, and this, it might sound so simplistic, but it, this is research backed and time and time again, is reconnecting with, with others. That is the number one thing. Because as a society, we weren't meant to stand alone, right? And I think especially if we want to overcome and be, become resilient to the effects of what the pandemic has done to us, which is the main, one of the main things is the isolation. It's even more important to reconnect with people. And, and so, and that could look any different, you know, all different sorts of ways. It doesn't have to be with tons of people. It could just be with one or two or a handful of people, you know, family even doing things like joining like a hiking group or, you know, something where it's, it's about going out there and, and re-engaging in life and re-engaging in relationships.
(23:22):
I think again, sort of, you know, if, if you tend to be more of an introvert, that might not be as easy, right? If you tend, or if, if your social battery is just really low, that's not gonna feel as easy. So just starting out with the smallest steps, I think is the most important thing, right? So if you can take a meeting in person, you know, rather than doing something over zoom, Hey, let's give it a try, you know, grab a coffee rather than, you know, doing a video meeting if you are, um, able to take a group gym class, you know, even something like that, right? You're surrounded by other people and that energy, and even if you're not connecting, there's a potential connection that you could make there. The other thing that I, I ask everyone to hold onto is, yes, this was a horrible experience for most people and through a lot of these more traumatic situations, there is something that's called post-traumatic growth that comes out of it.
(24:27):
And this might not be something that is an epiphany for everyone, but almost everyone can find something, right? That they have learned about themselves or, you know, in some ways this also allows us to have a reset button in terms of the way that we were living our lives. So I've had so many clients who have really struggled with work-life balance their whole life, and then all of a sudden, you know, this, the pandemic hits. I mean, I think a lot of us ended up working more than we probably wanted to, or I feel like it was the extremes, right? Or you lost your job and you're not working at all. Right? So there was these kind of like two extremes to that, you know, for those who maybe worked a little bit more than they wanted to, this was a, a reset a way to kind of bring themselves back into the world.
(25:19):
I've had a lot of people think of this even as, even socially as a way to kind of reinvent themselves. This is that opportunity to take that step forward. So to be able to think to yourself and wonder what have I learned from this? Like, how can I grow? And the, the pinnacle of post-traumatic growth is to create some sort of meaning or purpose, which I think in something like a pandemic is really hard. It's, I mean, that's hard in, in any sort of traumatic experience, but if we were to make that more digestible, it's about what kind of meaning or growth or purpose can you find in you being able to move through this and pass this.
Harper Spero (26:07):
I love that so much. And I want to throw it back to you and say, how did you find meaning for yourself given that you were holding all of your clients trauma and depression and anxiety and stress through the pandemic more than in, I assume regular times? How did you handle your own mental health?
Harper Spero (26:31):
Any of the doctors, the, you know, therapists, you know, anyone within sort of that healthcare field? I will say that this was a very interesting time in the sense where I, I've never been in a, where I'm experiencing everything that, almost everything that every single one of my clients were experiencing at the same time. So that was interesting <laugh> for sure, and very challenging at certain points. And, and what I will say is that it was, for me, it was constantly about checking myself and, and seeing where I'm at because there's that, you know, that oxygen mask theory, right? When of approaching the world and, and caretaking, right? Put it on yourself first before you put it on your child. It's very similar in that way. And, and I realized if I wasn't checking in with myself, and sometimes I wouldn't necessarily be in a perfect head space, I think that was near impossible and, you know, still is, but it's more about, okay, for that 45 minute time, can I be in a clear enough head space where I'm able to meet my client's needs and I could fall apart and do whatever I need to do after.
(27:48):
And so yes, absolutely, it was, it was challenging. I mean, thankfully I was quarantined with family members, which I will say was both good and bad. They had both pros and cons with that. I I definitely still spoke to a few of my therapist friends, colleagues that were friends, and we would both be talking about how, as how strange this time is. But I will say that I think a lot of people in my field or any sort of healthcare field did probably experience something called vicarious trauma on top of already being traumatized <laugh>. And so there definitely was this unique experience, but for me, I think the thing that really got me through was trying to find those connections as much as possible, trying to sit in a place of gratitude as much as I could. And that was a very purposeful act for me. You know, I did try and take care of my just kind of physical health in the sense of, you know, that mind body connection is so important. So finding the ways to stay physically healthy.
Harper Spero (28:58):
Yeah, I mean, as you said, it's one of those times where it's really about practicing what you preach. And I remember so many therapy sessions that I had where I watched my therapist's eyes on Zoom going like, oh, she's experiencing this also. She totally gets this. And I wonder if that comes up in your, in your practice in general, unrelated to the pandemic, given that you have your own invisible illness, Hashimotos thyroiditis, I wonder if you share that with your clients at all, who have invisible or chronic illnesses to make them feel like you get them even more.
Harper Spero (29:33):
My orientation and the way I sort of work within my therapeutic relationships is that, you know, I, I do share personal things about myself. I know other orientations, you know, they're kind of more of that blank slate and just very sort of boundaried in that way. But, so a lot of times my, you know, my clients know that I do have a kid, you know, that I am married, certain things like that, but I, I only share things to the point where I think it's a value to the person that I'm sitting with. So for example, if I have a client that feels maybe that they're alone in this invisible illness or that maybe that they, that I might not really get it in that mo in those moments. I absolutely do share that with my clients. Um, and I, and I find it to be valuable. I, I think that there's a way in which having an invisible illness, you know, it is very much a unique struggle because I think it requires more self-compassion and self empathy because the, the world won't really validate that as much for you.
Harper Spero (30:41):
I think you've got a lot of people that are probably listening going, yes, correct, that is absolutely correct. And it's so unfortunate, but it's definitely the truth. And there's a level of you have to advocate for yourself and take care of yourself because other people may not see you or see you for who you are. So I appreciate that you share that with your clients. Over throughout the pandemic, you built your Instagram account, you released incredible videos with amazing content and tidbits and tips. What led you to create this platform and what's the response been so far?
Harper Spero (31:21):
I did start it during the pandemic and it started because I, at that point was getting, and still am, I wanna say like five to 15 new referrals a week of people who were really struggling, wanting help some for the first time ever. And, you know, I always jokingly say, I'm a sucker for a sob story <laugh>. And so it was really hard to say no to a lot of these people. I wanted to be able to help every single one of them. But again, I had to also help myself. And I knew I had to really be careful of burnout. I was asked by all these smaller organizations to do Zoom workshops and sessions in terms of how do I manage my anxiety during the pandemic, you know, certain things, topics like that. So I had these recorded little videos, and so what I started to do with all of these people who were coming to me is I, I basically sent them these videos saying, Hey, I'm not sure when you're going to find a therapist because everyone is so full right now.
(32:29):
Why don't you start off at least watching this video? I'm hoping there are some nuggets in here that can be helpful and just hold you over until you're able to find the help that you need. And then I was getting really, um, helpful and positive feedback about how they appreciated this. And there were, you know, some very, uh, specific tools and tips that they felt that they could use. And then I thought to myself, wow, there is this need out there that, uh, a need for education, a need for just really practical tools and, and tips and strategies that people out there are, are really craving and there's this value to it. And because on an individual basis, I wasn't able to connect with these people in that way, and to help these people in that way, I started to think, okay, maybe groups are the way to do it.
(33:22):
Then in, in some, in some form. I, before this, I actually didn't really have a social media presence at all, but I started to just play around with it and, and figure, let's see, let's see what happens. Let's see how this goes. And that's how I started the account. And it's evolved over time and, um, I've taken in a lot of the feedback that I've been getting from just the followers out there and, and other people that have been watching what I've been doing. And so it's standing where it is right now. It's, it's a combination of just posts and also some videos and reels where I like to just do a slight deeper dive into some of the topics. And I'm hoping to roll out some more workshops and online courses, and again, just tools to be able to reach more people that aren't in need.
Harper Spero (34:18):
Yeah, I mean, I think the internet is flooded with information, but I do feel like if you can find a video like yours that can give you some quick tip that it's, hits you in the moment where you need it the most, those are so valuable. I say from personal experience, just sort of landing somewhere and going, wow, I didn't even know I needed that today. And I think that's the kind of information that you provide with the group setting. How are you finding that differs for you as a, uh, psychologist and also the response of your clients in being in group setting as opposed to one-on-one?
Harper Spero (34:57):
What's nice is that in my training, we all learn, not we all, but at least I did group therapy within that. You, you learn things like just managing feelings in a group, you know, um, how do you make sure everyone feels validated, you know, all all of those types of strategies and tools that you use in leading a group. But what I will say is that a lot of these workshops that I'm rolling out, they tend to be more experiential and didactic, right? So it's more about learning and also understanding yourself a little bit more. But the biggest thing for me is I feel like, at least for me as a learner, and I think for a lot of other people, being able to, uh, ex experience things in the moment is, is the best tool to make the new information stick, right? So for example, one of the first things that I always start off with in, in these group settings are things like, like a task to find your five top priorities and values.
(36:01):
And I say that, that is going to be your compass for life, right? And that's gonna lead you in times of uncertainty, in times of self-doubt, as long as you're staying, you know, along those five top, top five to seven values. Usually I say, you know, that you can't really steer yourself wrong. And so that's like an example of, of sort of experiential, but then, you know, I always call them like nuggets. I want you to be able to take home some nuggets and just really use them right away. I think the wonderful thing that I've really liked about the group setting rather than individual is that there's a way in which it's very validated to one, know that you're not the only one struggling, two, that there are other people that share similar ideas or approaches as you, but then also it's a wonderful learning sort of system where hey, one person shares an idea, it starts another idea, and then it sparks new ideas and generates a lot more conversation and just, um, creative thinking, which I really have been appreciating. And I think my, the, the clients in, in the groups have been really appreciating too.
Harper Spero (37:20):
That's great. Yeah, I think there's so much value. I mean, it goes back to the connection and, and reaching out to people. And this is no different. I mean, it's you curating a group, but it's no different than being amongst people who are like-minded and get you. So I think that's really powerful. What's the most rewarding aspect of being a clinical psychologist for you?
Harper Spero (37:42):
Ooh, that one's a big question. Um, so many rewarding aspects, but if I had to pick the top, I would say it's probably about seeing the strength and resilience in people. I mean, truly I am, I'm in just so in awe of what people are able to overcome, or, and, and some of it doesn't necessarily even have to be like this huge, you know, horrible thing that happened to them, but it, it's more about, you know, the impact and the, and the, the relative struggle within themselves that I think people are able to, to really process and push through that I think is the most rewarding for me.
Harper Spero (38:32):
Awesome. So final question. What do you want people to know about invisible illness?
Harper Spero (38:39):
The most important thing is, again, like I said, there's a, a greater need for self-validation and self empathy. And I think there's a way in which people often forget about that too, about themselves. There's so many of my clients that I do have to pause them and say like, Hey, could your invisible illness be affecting this too? I, I think sometimes we all need that reminder. Sometimes I need that reminder, you know, um, there's a way in which, you know, when I start to feel really tired all of a sudden, you know, and, and, you know, I'm like, what's going on? And it starts kind of thinking about things and then all of a sudden I'm like, huh, maybe I have to go get my thyroid checked again. I think some people feel like they have to almost like prove themselves a little bit more because of what they're, what they're dealing with on the inside. Being able to have that self-compassion and that empathy for yourself, I think is probably one of the most important things. And, and to not th think of it as some in, in that way, some sort of like weakness or vulnerability. I, I think letting go of that need to have, to prove yourself to other people or to even convince other people you know, of your invisible illness.
Harper Spero (40:08):
Thank you, Michelle. I appreciate the work that you do and for joining me today. Where can people learn more about you, watch your videos, and potentially sign up for workshops and groups?
Harper Spero (40:20):
My practice website is probably the best way to connect with me, which is Dr, so dr michelle chung.com. And, uh, I will be sort of connecting that website with a new website, which will be the in practice website. But right now the Inpractice work really lives on Instagram and Facebook, which is the account is Dr. Dot Michelle Chung.
Harper Spero (40:49):
Awesome. Thank you Michelle.
Dr. Michelle Chung (40:51):
Thanks.
Harper Spero (40:55):
Thanks for tuning into Made Visible. We hope you learned about something new today. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a few minutes to subscribe, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. Your support means the world to us. Visit made visible stories.com to check out our writing workshops, corporate offerings, and more information that can help you in navigating life with an invisible illness. Follow made visible stories on Instagram. See you next week.